Title: DeProgram with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou: “Gaza-istan?”
Show: DeProgram Show with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas
Date: 2025-11-01
URL: https://youtu.be/V7-d0Y6eESc
Duration: 61:00

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[00:02] Good morning, John Kiriakou. Or Hey, hey, sorry. Trying to get myself situated here. Me, too. I I I We have a brand new intro that I couldn't even play cuz I couldn't find it. So, uh we're all trying to get ourselves situated. That's just how it is now. Uh welcome to Dprogram with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou for Halloween, October 31st, 2025. Please like, follow, and share the show. Uh just a reminder, we are here deprogramming you from the mainstream BS

[00:34] Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time. Um and we are going to be here every single day of next week, as well. So, please tune in Please tune in. Um just want to say this is the end of the month, so we keep track of the uh all the metrics and all the numbers are still improving um month after month. And so, uh thank you. That's thanks to you guys. But, uh we can't do it without your support um financial and otherwise. So, um thanks for that. You guys are incredibly generous and uh means the world to us.

[01:05] Um John, uh we have lots to talk about today. Yeah, there's a lot of craziness going on today. And for a Friday, you know, I always say I I I got this from the agency when I was at the agency that Friday Ooh. Um we just lost John Kiriakou. So, John is overseas. Um he's finishing out the week. I don't think it's a secret. Uh they're in uh the in Iberia, and he will

[01:35] be back home this weekend. There's John. We'll put him back on. I have no idea what that was all about. I I blame Ice and and uh and and Israel. Why not? Yes, Israel, too. So, I was saying Fridays at the CIA were always very, very slow because everything's closed in the Middle East on either Thursday and Friday or Friday and Saturday, depending on the country you're in. They have different weekends. And that sort of bled into the United

[02:05] States, too. It's usually quieter on a Friday. Congress is usually not in session. Even when they're in session, they're going home on on Thursday nights. But, man, there is so much to talk about today. It's busy. And none of it is good news, I hate to say. No, that's true. And I'll just go through I'll run it through so everybody knows what what to expect. Um so, obviously we're talking about the uh looming deadline tomorrow about snap benefits, as well as the Affordable Care Act um subsidies. All uh hits Everything hits the wall this

[02:36] weekend. Not that Congress much seems to care. They They have They have the House has had the has had the month off, and the Senate has the weekend off. They're like, "Well, you know, what? Me worry?" Anyway, we'll get into that. Um Trump's polls um among young voters have absolutely fallen off a cliff. And I don't mean like, "Oh, like, you know, in the last 5 years." I mean, literally in just a matter of months, Gen Z voters, which is people under 30, uh have gone

[03:07] from 50% approval to 20% approval from February to October. I don't know that I I don't think Richard Nixon suffered such a drop-off in 1974. Um No, that was more gradual. >> And and you know you know he's concerned because yesterday he said that his poll numbers have never been higher, and his poll numbers may be at a record high for any president in American history. I mean, you know, all true except for

[03:37] not being attached to reality at all. Um yeah, and by the way, it's not just the Gen Z. I know uh people are watching and saying, "But, people under 30 don't vote." And that's true. But, this is also true about 30-somethings, and they do vote. Um and they've also been voting more and more. Um the Defense Department admitted in a classified briefing that they don't know who they're blowing up in the Caribbean. Um that's even some Republican congressmen are starting to question whether that's such a great thing. And of course >> that they're serial killers.

[04:08] Yes, they are. That's what it comes down to. They're mass murderers. They're random murderers. Although, I have to say, John, if you were a Venezuelan fisherman, might you not I know you have to make a living, but might you not decide to take like a 2-3-6-week vacation right now? Yeah, I would. Hey, gang, can I add something else? Talking about killing Venezuelans and poll numbers and protesters and all this stuff. You know, I mentioned offhandedly last week that

[04:38] um that Stephen Miller lives in Arlington, Virginia, where I live. He lives walking distance from my house. And people have been going over there for weeks and um writing mean things in chalk on the sidewalk in front of his house. And there's nothing he can do about it because the sidewalk is is public you know, it's public thoroughfare. You can do whatever you want. So, he abruptly sold his house for $2.3 million. It's a nice house.

[05:09] And moved. They never told us where he moved until today. I mentioned to you that that I read this hyper-local website for local news called arlingtonnow.com. Arlingtonnow.com says it's not just Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller, Pete Hegseth, and Kristi Noem all moved onto Fort Myer Army base. What? >> That that abuts. Yep. And they moved

[05:39] into housing that is reserved for one- to four-star generals. All three of them and their families. They're I mean, talk about talk about gated community. That's the mother of all gated communities. Yeah, and that's a great way to say it. It's the mother of all gated communities. And I tell you what, before 9/11, because my wife and I were both GS-15s, we were allowed membership in the officers' club at Fort Myer. So, we used to go go bowling,

[06:10] have a beer, have a burger. We'd go to the pool in the summer. Then 9/11 hit, and you need a DOD ID showing that you're either a general who lives there or that you are assigned to the base. So, I haven't been on that base since 9/11. But, they're just allowed to move into homes reserved for three- and four-star generals, and we're all supposed to just nod our heads. Well, what happens when they when Trump gets sick of them and fires them or just

[06:41] let's let's assume we ever have another Democratic president again. Um Not not 100% certain. Um what happens then? I guess I guess we throw them out on their asses. And then and then then they have to put up with the chalk remarks on their on their sidewalk. The chalk If If you chalk the sidewalks, the terrorists have won. Yeah, exactly. Chalk. Big baby. >> Thank you very much, Gregory uh Batista, for the uh very generous $20 donation

[07:13] over on YouTube. Much appreciated. Much, much, much appreciate. We've got some questions coming in on the Rumble feed, too. Uh so, we should like get some of those. And good morning to everybody uh who Favorite Halloween candy, F U So wants to know. Um Uh mine I don't really like candies, but I remain partial to chocolate. Uh I like milk chocolate or dark chocolate the best. Um especially like the heavy salted kind. Um but, they didn't really do that in Ohio in the 1970s. And I also

[07:46] like What were those What were those things called? The The Oh, I liked Life Savers. The those things. I'm a boring person. I like chocolate. Uh I prefer dark chocolate, but I also like uh milk chocolate. I Honestly, I'll eat anything that calls itself chocolate except the white chocolate. I don't like that at all. TSTC024 has a question, too, John. Um Have we seen what's going on in Sudan with the civil war that's going on? 20 to 60,000 killed so far. What are our

[08:17] guys' thoughts? I mean, that's a a very underreported story, including by us. We've been remiss. >> Very. Very. I was watching coverage this morning on this French uh channel that I've been telling you about, France 24 it's called. Mhm. And um the the video from Sudan is it's just epically brutal. I mean, hundreds and hundreds of bodies just laying, you know, in the fields or laying in this hospital parking lot. The um the the government uh government-affiliated

[08:48] militia attacked civilians day before yesterday, killed at least 624 people just in cold blood. It was a it was a massacre. Uh it's it's a crime against humanity is is what it is. Um this John reminds me a little bit of the underreported civil war in Tajikistan in the '90s. Yeah. A lot of people died. By some accounts, a quarter to a third of the population. There were massacres, ethnic massacres all the time. Um you know, they they ran out of

[09:19] bullets at one point. And uh and so, they would tie people together with ropes and throw them into rivers and uh and drown them all together. It was like one of their things. Um and and the you know, the the the the similarity with Sudan is that the uh all the the These were proxy wars that were funded by outsiders. And as as long as long as the money kept coming in, the war went on. But, eventually, the proxy um sponsors, which included the Taliban and the US

[09:49] and Russia and China, like, basically all lost interest in Tajikistan. And um and they stopped funding funding it. And then like basically there was a power sharing agreement, and they had a fragile peace. And now they've really climbed out of the hole. Um, it took a long time, but it but you know, they were in a deep hole. Um, Sudan feels like that, right? Isn't like so the Rapid Support Forces, which is a breakaway part of the government, um, it's just a civil conflict within the government. The They're supported by the UA They're financed by the UAE, right?

[10:22] And the uh Yes. the government of Sudan is supported by Is it Cutter or I mean, who is it? >> yeah, it was Saudi Arabia, I think. >> Saudi Arabia. Yeah. So So there seems to be a Is there a Wahhabi component to this conflict? You know, I would personally have called Hassan al-Turabi uh Wahhabi, and the leaders of Sudan today are sort of the ideological descendants of Hassan al-Turabi. So I would say yeah, there probably is a Wahhabi component to this. He was a fundamentalist by anybody's

[10:52] definition of fundamentalism. John, I think we should spend a little bit of our weekend reading up on checking up on Sudan and doing a deeper dive next week cuz I we we we owe everyone on Deep Background. And and I think I think we owe people um a discussion about Nigeria, as well. There's a lot of bad bad stuff going on in Nigeria right now. All right, sub-Saharan Africa it is next week. Uh, FUSO, thank you for the donation. Happy pumpkin day to you, as well. I am a great pumpkin believer. Uh, as a huge fan of peanuts, um, of

[11:26] course so am I, as well. Um All right, so John, we have all the We have this panoply of of stories to choose from. What would you like to get into first? Ted, if you don't mind, I'd like to start at the end and talk about prospects for Pakistani troops to be sent to Gaza. Let's do it. >> it sounds nuts, and it actually makes a little bit of sense. Um, and the reason is while Pakistan is

[11:57] Muslim, it has always kept the Arab-Israeli uh conflict at arm's length because the Pakistanis are not Arabs. They're They're Pakistanis. And so they have enough problems let alone to have to worry about what's happening in Palestine, as well. So now there are rumors that both the Israelis and the um Saudis are saying, "What about Pakistan?" Now this makes a lot of sense

[12:28] to me from the Saudi perspective because Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are joined at the hip like this. They love each other. And the Pakistanis make up the vast majority of the Saudi military. So to send Pakistanis to Gaza might actually work out. They're Muslims, so they should have the respect of the Gaza Palestinians, and vice versa. They would show respect to the Gaza Palestinians because they understand the

[12:59] culture and the and the religion. And um they would sort of take the air out of uh Hamas's sails, which is exactly what the Israelis want. I haven't seen any comment by the United States on this, but um but I think this might be a good idea. Well, so the the the rumors that are floating are that we're they're talking about 20,000 troops. That's a lot. Um, of course, you know, it is a place where 2.2 million people used to live and 1.7

[13:31] million people still live. Um, so it's not that much, but I mean, it's still a good size group. Um, this is supposedly been brokered between the ISI and Mossad. What's the relationship like? Well, there was a formal relationship as as recently as uh 1979. But um there is no formal relationship since then. Like I say, they they don't have a lot

[14:01] They don't have a lot to do with each other in in day-to-day world events. Um but they're not at each other's throats. The Pakistanis are worried about the Indians, and to a slightly lesser extent, they're worried about the Afghans. They don't have time to worry about the about the Israelis. And the Israelis have The Israelis have never seen Pakistan as a threat to Israel. You know, they'll they'll offer vocal support for the Arabs, but that it ends there with vocal support.

[14:32] That's it. So yeah, I mean, yeah, there I mean, you know better than anyone there are many different kinds of Muslims, right? So Absolutely. Palestine So the Palestinian Muslims, the the particularly the ones in Gaza, how are they going to relate to uh their Muslim brothers from South Asia? I mean, not to mention they're Aren't they going to be seen as an occupation force that is doing the bidding of the Zionist entity?

[15:05] There's always the possibility that that would be the case, but the Gaza Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. The Pakistanis are almost entirely Sunni Muslims. Handful of Shia, but they tend not to be in the military cuz they can't get promoted. Um, so that that might be enough. You know, I was thinking about this when I first heard about it, and I was thinking, "Well, the alternative would have been troops from Tahiti, right? We We've talked about about how um or from Fiji. We talked about how these Pacific

[15:36] islands provide so many peacekeeping forces, and it's a major source of of income for them. It makes up a great part of their budget. Um they're cultural strangers, you know, the the people from the South Pacific. At least the Pakistanis would understand Islam, would respect, you know, Palestinian women, all the stuff that that non-Muslim peacekeeping forces over the years have been accused of ignoring. will not get.

[16:09] Yeah. So they I mean, but what if they're perceived as I mean, if this is being framed as an ISI-Mossad deal, anything that's seen as being related to Israel is obviously as toxic as it can possibly get right now. >> but if the Saudis weigh in and endorse it, I think that'll be good enough. The Saudis aren't being viewed as I mean, aren't the Saudis being viewed as as feckless by the Palestinians? I mean, you know, given the fact that they were before October 7th I mean, if October

[16:41] 7th hadn't happened, right now there might be an Israeli ambassador in Riyadh. Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, the Bahrainis, the uh Emiratis, the Tunisians, the Moroccans, even the Sudanese are indeed seen as feckless because they caved and joined the so-called Abraham Accords. You're right, if if there hadn't been an October 7th, there probably would be an Israeli ambassador in Riyadh and a Saudi ambassador at least in Tel Aviv, if not

[17:12] in Jerusalem. But there isn't. And so I think the Palestinians would probably hang on that. And then what about um, you know, obviously these denials are coming out of Islamabad. Um, the Of course, you know, I always I'm sure you're like me. I I There are denials, and then there are and then there are denials. And this is not a denial denial. This is like a there we have no such plans, which of course means you could be working on it, indeed

[17:42] have plans, but you don't, you know, you can still credibly say until you've pulled the trigger and the prime minister has signed off, it's not really a plan. It's just something we're discussing. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Of course, Pakistan's probably the most rumor-tastic country in the world. >> Oh my god, listen. I gave an interview to an Indian uh outlet last week. All hell has broken loose in South Asia. I've I'm I have more death threats than

[18:13] I can shake a stick at. And then and then the um what's his name? Imran Khan's party um issued a formal statement demanding that I apologize to Imran Khan, I apologize to the party, and I apologize to the Pakistani people. And they want it in writing by the end of the day today. And I told them, and please forgive me, but I told them that I wipe my ass with their apology, and that's as good as they're getting.

[18:44] And then the death threats came in. Shocking. I can't say I'm surprised, but but I would definitely have someone else do you don't who you don't like start your car in the morning. Um $20 donation, thank you so much from Unsung Pat. Um, she's talking a little bit back to you know, back a little echo on Sudan. Starvation, one of the oldest weapons of war plus poor plus desperation equals a powder keg {slash} napalm. Just need a match. Looting. Sudan, 700 days of

[19:14] conflict, right? 2 years. Civilians starving. Something Irish heritage knows well. Uh, $1 donation from FUSO. Thank you so much. That's an Candace Owen coverage of the Egyptian plane with the Charlie Kirk assassination. John, do you have Do you have such thoughts? I don't I don't. >> familiar with it. Okay. Do you Do you know anything about it? No. No, I was hoping you did. No, I'm sorry. That was a joke. >> uh maybe FUSO can elaborate a little bit

[19:46] in the chat, and we'll try to figure that out. Also, thank you so much over on on for the uh five uh five euro donation from Roden Gu 9864 regarding the Cameroon situation. Man, it is all about sub-Saharan Africa. >> it's it's it's dire over there. Aside from being Is there Is there Do Do Do these crises have anything in in common? I mean, is there a you know economic or agricultural thing going on right now in Africa? >> Cameroon Cameroon less so than Chad,

[20:19] Mali, and Nigeria. Chad, Mali, and Nigeria, it's it's Al-Qaeda and its associated groups, Boko Haram. They're just slaughtering people, especially Christians. And what they've been doing is is just going into schools and opening fire. They're kidnapping some of the children and opening fire on the adults, the the teachers, the administrators, or they'll they'll herd people into churches and then set the churches on fire and then shoot anybody who tries to escape from the burning church. Lovely. Not a good situation.

[20:52] And it's not it's not being covered in the American media for some reason. No, not not at all, for sure. Um question from also from a donor, Zoe LaRosa 211. Thanks for the two bucks. Will Pakistan help Hamas though? Oh, well, that's a good question. It's a legitimate question. And and the the consensus is that they won't because the Pakistanis do as the Saudis tell them to do. And if the Saudis tell them, "You're

[21:23] going to go and be peacekeepers, and by being peacekeepers, you're also going to help Gazan society get back up on its feet, and you've got to protect the the Palestinians from Hamas, then that's what they'll do. Um won't Hamas just rule Afghan style? I mean, they can't melt into the into the mountains cuz there are no mountains, but you know, I mean, they're they are in they're completely fully embedded in civilian society. I mean, you know, you might be a Hamas fighter all throughout

[21:54] the last two years and then be a school teacher during the con after the conflict is over, and you bide your time and you wait for the call from your commander. Of course. You're not They don't carry identity cards that say Hamas on it. Right? These are just regular normal people who who have their own roles in society besides being Hamas fighters. And they don't they don't they might even go work for the Pakistanis, right? I mean, like I met a guy I met a guy in Afghanistan in in in

[22:24] 2010, and he saw no conflict between the fact that during the day, he worked for the Northern Alliance government of Hamid Karzai as an irrigation expert, and at night, he would go out with the Taliban and blow up irrigation canals. It's the great great cycle of life for these people. There's no conflict in that. Oh my god almighty. We have a we have a question, too, about Kimberly Guilfoyle. She arrives tomorrow in Athens as the US ambassador to Greece.

[22:54] The Greeks the Greek media, at least, is very excited about this. I will say that the Greek American press is not excited about this. But, with that said, for reasons that I will never understand, Donald Trump seems to love Greece, and Greece seems to love Donald Trump. And it doesn't matter if if Mitsotakis is the prime minister or if there's a socialist or or Eurocommunist prime minister, Trump has gotten along with all of the

[23:25] prime ministers that Greece has had during the Trump presidency. And you know, Greece has had a mix over the years of of career diplomats who've been ambassador and political appointees who've been ambassador. And they like it when the ambassador has a direct line to the president. So, you know, would I have chosen Kimberly Guilfoyle? Of course not. But but she is, you know, a practiced seasoned attorney, former US attorney or assistant US attorney,

[23:56] and she's got a direct line to Trump. So, we'll see how the next 3 years go. Zizis Karagiannis, thank you so much for the 29.99 Australian dollars. Much appreciated. Thank you very much. Yeah, so yeah, all right. So, just like scrolling through scrolling through. All right, so hmm, that's so strange. There are two shows going on, one on screen, one in chat. Oh, well, that's true.

[24:27] So, anyway, well, that's always true in the Rumble feed. You know, sometimes the the Rumble feed has nothing to do with what we're talking about. And I'm like, do you guys even watch? I mean, you know, hey, we're happy to be here, but what are we, chopped liver? All right, so I mean, so I I guess the thing is um how like let's let's put this on to the how likely o meter. I mean, I think first of all, if there is an international

[24:57] peacekeeping force, then I could see this being a 40% chance this could happen. I don't think there's going to be an international peacekeeping force, but >> think the Israelis will allow it. They don't want peace? No. Yeah, I mean, look at what they've been doing. We should talk about how they've been [ __ ] up the ceasefire. Yeah. Did you see today the Washington Post reported that that in a classified briefing yesterday, the State Department said that they have confirmed Israeli atrocities against

[25:28] Palestinian civilians. Yep. Um there have been so many of them that they haven't been able to go through all the different atrocities that have been committed. So, why would the Israelis want outsiders, especially outside Muslims, to come in and be the peacekeepers? Yeah, but they're still not even allowing the media in, right? And it's amazing to me. I mean, what do you make of the fact that uh American media organizations aren't complaining and saying like, "Look, you guys didn't let us in during the war, and you should

[25:59] have, but right now there's this active ceasefire brokered by the United States president, and you're still not letting American reporters in you know they're chomping at the bit. I mean, I am. I'd go. I mean, like so like what what's the deal? Yep, exactly right. If they're not going to let American journalists in, they're not going to let Pakistani troops in. Yeah. Yeah. And well, if they don't want American journalists in there because the mass graves are going to get are

[26:29] being dug up right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh Yeah, it's not good. All right, so well, I guess we probably while we're on this on this track, do you want to talk about the Southern Caribbean? Yeah, let's do that. Another place where all you can do is shake your head right now. Yeah, so we all know what's been going on with it. I mean, first of all, I'm not really clear on how these attacks are supposed to be pressuring President Maduro. Um I mean, if I'm President

[27:00] Maduro, of course I'm displeased that my nationals are being blown up like they're going out of season. But um you know, I mean, how is that like really making him think, "Oh, I should step I should step I should step away, I should run away, go into exile." I don't see it. Why? No. No, I I agree with you. Uh this is a stupid policy. And now we have confirmed what we always suspected is that nobody even knows that these people are drug runners or if these are

[27:31] drug boats. They're they're probably just innocent fishermen. You know, these bodies washed up in Trinidad and Tobago last week, or pieces of bodies washed up, Mhm. apparently from from boats that the that the Pentagon bombed, and they appear to be just Trinidadian fishermen. Can you imagine being at the beach like with your family, and then, you know, someone's leg washes up? >> yeah, exactly. Another thing, too, is the US has long accused Maduro of drug

[28:04] trafficking. I think I mentioned to you, I did a I did an investigation when I was the senior investigator on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and part of that investigation was drug trafficking through Venezuela. Um there there is some drug trafficking through Venezuela. That is not to say that Maduro controls it or even has any idea when and where it's happening. What it is is Colombian drug planes landing

[28:34] in Venezuela to, you know, pick up, to drop off, unload, who knows, and then continuing on to Africa. It's it's not clear-cut like the administration wants you to think it is. And then we had this news from earlier in the week that the CIA tried to recruit Maduro's pilot so that were Maduro to flee, ostensibly for Cuba, the plane, instead of landing in Havana,

[29:05] would land in Key West, and the DEA would grab him and then take him to Miami, just like we did to Noriega, and charge him with international drug trafficking. By the way, why not, out of curiosity, if you're involved in regime change, what do you give a [ __ ] where the deposed ruler goes? Why do you care if they go to [ __ ] Havana or Russia or Saudi Arabia or Nigeria or or or I mean, why isn't it like what is the point of a Noriega situation? I still don't even understand what Bush got out

[29:37] of it. I think you get the you get the it's a trophy to put him on trial and to say that you captured him. I was talking about this with Doug McGregor a couple of days ago. Colonel Doug Doug McGregor who's very very very conservative but in a libertarian kind of way and he said that he said that Maduro is not stupid. First of all, he's not going to go anywhere unless the United States physically invades Venezuela and even then he's not stupid enough to go to Cuba

[30:08] that he will likely have arranged in advance to get to Moscow. Now, can he can he make it to Moscow without being intercepted by America or its numerous allies? That's a long trip. It's a long trip. Uh you can ask we we can we can ask you know Ed Snowden about how how perilous that trip can be. Yeah, you know thank God that he did not make it to Ecuador. So, the Trump administration is asking

[30:41] us to you know basically do believe something that we know isn't true and can't be true. They say that 70% of overdoses in the United States are directly attributable to fentanyl that is processed from a cocaine that originates in Venezuela. And like that's just not how it works. That's what they said. That's not true. That's just simply not true. No. But I guess they're they're counting on people not really knowing about this and

[31:11] then I got to Google that while we're talking cuz that's preposterous. And then congressman uh yeah, this was the this is what they said and then like both Democrats and some Republicans are starting to ask questions like from the you know they the defense or war department or whatever the [ __ ] it's called now. Um they go they went into you know they had this classified briefing. They're supposed to be told exactly what's going on and the you know the DOD admitted we literally don't know who we're killing. No, they don't know. They don't have any idea.

[31:43] Which makes can there be any legal basis for that? Yeah. It's just murder. Plain and simple. Do you think anyone will ever Do you think like if we had like a you know president president AOC that anyone would ever be held accountable? I mean no one was ever held accountable for for CIA torture. Obama made sure of that within a day or two of taking office. Yeah, exactly. No one's ever held accountable. That's just how that works. You can do whatever the [ __ ] you want. No, no one's ever held accountable. Hey,

[32:13] I'm looking at the DEA's fact sheet on fentanyl right here and fentanyl is not made from cocaine. No, period. It's mixed with cocaine and with every other drug that's out there. Cocaine, heroin, um uh methamphetamine, it's it's mixed with everything. Um you can even put it in a nasal spray. 42% of all pills confiscated at the border contain

[32:43] fentanyl. 42% >> That's insane. Yeah, and it says 42% of all pills tested for fentanyl contained at least 2 mg of fentanyl which is considered to be a lethal dose. Oh Jesus. Yeah, now I mean well this is like I mean it's like the if you remember the of course obviously in the 80s angel when they when when drugs would be spiced with angel spiked with angel dust to make them PCP to make it a little more interesting quote unquote. Um I

[33:13] don't know you know the drug I mean I knew quite a few serious drug addicts at that time and I don't think they were ever needing or desiring that. You know, I mean honestly it's a it was a flaw in the marketplace and I don't mean to be dry about that. I just don't think it's something that drug users really wanted. You know, drug users want to know what they're getting. Yeah, they do. Um just like any other consumers. My brother-in-law died of a of a fentanyl overdose. Um >> Oh wow. And

[33:44] you know, he didn't mean to. He thought he was just going to smoke some meth like he smoked every day and um and 15 minutes later he was dead and that was it. Jesus. Yeah, 36 years old. Jesus. What a horrible I hate drugs. Terrible. So, um well let's talk about Should we move on to the the to the domestic situation? Sure thing. All right, so tomorrow's November 1st. Um people are going to lose their his start losing their health care

[34:16] and poor people I guess the question is does anyone care about poor people? But 42 million Americans are going to lose their food stamps snap benefits. Um Republicans they might be singing a a different tale but you and I both know they're they're scared to death. There's that poll we talked about. It's the latest YouGov Economist poll that shows 20% of adults under age 30 liked Donald Trump a lot. Sorry, 50%

[34:47] liked him a lot back in February. Now only 20% like him and even it's I mean and the same and those numbers are not quite as dramatic but pretty damn dramatic for the 30-something crowd the millennials. Um you know, obviously like you said the we know the president's nervous. So, the big takeaway here is yes just now Donald Trump is calling to for the nuclear option. So, not to not nuclear

[35:19] weapons or nuclear powered missiles but and you know by the way I want to thank you thank the listener who pointed out that nuclear powered missiles don't have to be nuclear weapons themselves. Um that's very true. We weren't clear about that yesterday. Yeah, that's true. And but but like so he wants basically they want to get rid of the filibuster for foreign viewers the US Senate has a rule that goes back that's been controversial for a long time that says that basically you can

[35:50] you can keep the you can keep the Senate in session and basically you can't really truly close the deal unless you get 60% not a simple majority of the vote. You need 60 you need 60 seats not 50 60 votes not 50 votes. And basically what that allows is a minority in in the Senate to gum up the works. Traditionally that's been the Republicans but certainly Democrats are doing it now and that's why we have a shutdown. Donald Trump basically is

[36:20] calling for the end of the filibuster. That would have some dramatic long-term political implications. I want to be clear Democrats started this [ __ ] when they got they pulled the nuclear option on Trump's on the on the Democratic Obama's uh judicial nominations and they thought literally they said oh don't worry Republicans will never get to avail themselves of this because Democrats will literally be in power forever. They literally said that. You can look it up. >> I want to punch the corpse of Harry Reid

[36:52] right in the face. That was his idea. Idiot. [ __ ] idiot. So, like the point is you know your old uh you know your old uh your old buddy uh you know smart guy. I mean he's he's he's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working a [ __ ] up system. He's working >> He's another one I want to punch in the face. He said that Democrats have to stop acting like children and just vote for this budget. Well then but then okay, so John Fetterman who has health issues should be able to relate to people who

[37:23] have health issue who need health insurance. >> You would think. And so you know, I mean he had the dude had a stroke. I mean you know if you have a stroke I mean I literally okay, so I have a a cartoonist colleague about a month ago. He's a little younger than me. He had a stroke. His entire right side is paralyzed. He's facing he's about to become homeless. He posted on Facebook that he has no idea where he's going to go. Um that that the rehab is about to throw him out on the street. He has no one to

[37:55] take him in or take care of him. He can't work. Yeah, right. Exactly. So then what? What the rest of us >> a you throw a dude with with a right side of his body doesn't work. You know John you know what I would do? I would literally go to I would be one of those non-violent bank robbers where you know people have done this. They like I I need to go to prison so I have a place to stay and they you know they walk into the bank they say please give me all your money and then they wait patiently for the police to arrive and they say you know I I I needed to be arrested. Please take me to prison cuz I

[38:27] would be homeless. I'm I'm I have no way out. I think I I think I told you that one of my cellmates he was the last the last one of my cellmates to move in. He was from Pittsburgh. Nice guy, perfectly normal totally normal guy and I asked him what he was in for and he said oh that he had a conviction years ago and he had already done his time but every year at the start of winter he intentionally violates his probation so that he can spend the winters

[38:58] in in jail in prison. He said that um he otherwise lives in a tent along the Ohio River and you know it's cold in Pittsburgh. And so he intentionally violates. He gets sent back for 6 months and he says I get three meals a day, I get a warm bed and I get free medical care. So, better to be in prison than in a tent you know, in a van down by the river as the old Saturday night Live skit goes.

[39:31] Yeah, I mean honestly I think it's I think you're your old you know colleague your old your old buddy you know a guy. He's he's working a [ __ ] up system. Yeah, you know what he did? He was one of these uh carnies. You know, he ran the carnival rides. They're all convicts and most of them are pedophiles. So, um he was selling drugs from the drugs from the carnival. And because he was crossing state lines, going from state to state to state selling drugs, it was

[40:02] a federal charge. So, he did 7 years and he gets 10 years probation. And so, every winter he just violates so he can get back in. I mean, okay, so John, I'm glad that that with the conversation went in this way because this is the really the big question I wanted to ask you. So, here's the thing. It's a factoid now, but one eight this this crisis reminds us and one out of every eight Americans is on food stamps. In some states, it's one out of four.

[40:33] Ironically, Republican states. And I'm not going to and I'm not one of those people who's like, well, you get what you deserve cuz you voted for these people. We don't even know that. Those people might have all voted Democratic, right? But the point is one What does it say? I mean, how can you be rah-rah USA number one, what a great country we have, let's tell other countries, you know, let's share our values so that they can have 1/8 of their country living in abject poverty. By the way,

[41:04] these are the This is not the whole state of poverty, right? There's lots of people who are working poor, who don't qualify for food stamps, or don't want them, don't apply for it. There's lots of people who who are too marginal and sleeping like outside who are not going to get who are not in the system, also. So, this is just a subset of the poverty in this country, which is really more like one out of four. Um So, people are I mean, one out of eight Americans is on food

[41:34] stamps. To me, I would be like, what the [ __ ] is wrong with our country if I'm a if I'm a congressman or a senator? Why are we not doing anything Why did I mean, why is that like not a statistic that just makes like Donald Trump himself say, what the [ __ ] Why does that not make John Fetterman say, what the [ __ ] Why does that not make Lester Holt say, what the [ __ ] >> should say, what the [ __ ] Because he was the mayor of Braddock, Pennsylvania, which is one of the poorest, most crime-ridden cities in the entire state

[42:04] of Pennsylvania. He knows better. You know, Ted, in in 2011, sorry, 2012 in January, um I was I was arrested in mid-January and um just 1 week after my arrest, I was sitting at the dining room table with my wife and she had a calculator and then she looked up at me and she said, "I don't see how we can afford to buy food next week." Jesus. >> And I I said, "Are we in that bad a

[42:34] shape already?" And she said, "Yeah, everything that we have we gave to the lawyers last week and I don't think we have enough money for food." So, the next day we went to the welfare office in Arlington County and we qualified for literally everything, including a $90 monthly cash supplement because she was breastfeeding. And we had two kids at home. And I still had two kids two other kids that I'm paying child support for at the time.

[43:05] So, we were on we were on food stamps for 9 months um until she finally found a job in October of that year. And thank God for that. Yeah. So, so Fetterman knows better. Fetterman should know better. Fetterman should be saying exactly the opposite of what he's been saying. And not just, you know, yesterday and today with CNN, but really for the for the past 2 years. And if he's not going to help

[43:36] poor people feed their families, then, you know, maybe it's time to primary this guy. Well, and also, I mean, the Republican posture, I mean, even if you're working 55 hours a week and you don't follow all the details, right? I mean, you you hear the Democrat the the Republicans say, "Agree to our plan and then we will negotiate with you afterwards." Everyone knows that's not how anything works, right? It's like So, I mean, I

[44:07] guess the only exception to that is if you go into the hospital to get a operation because it's going to cost whatever they bill you and they don't tell you in advance. If you're like, "Hey, how much is this appendectomy is going to be?" They can't They literally can't tell you. They literally won't tell you. It's literally like, it's like you get the bill and you pay. Tough [ __ ] Sucks to be you. If you If you can't If you have to ask, you can't afford it. Yep, that is it. Unsung Pat is making an important point here that in 1973, the wealth gap was the smallest and the

[44:38] middle class was the strongest. First of all, God bless Richard Nixon and his economic policy, number one. Number two, starting with Dwight Eisenhower and going through Nixon, tax rates were the highest against the wealthiest people. And so, I mean, of course, you had the same write-offs and such that that that you know, we see today, but the the basic uh tax rate for the wealthiest people was

[45:11] upwards of 75% and they could whittle it down from there. Well, now they pay almost nothing to begin with and whittle it down from there. And then we can't understand why our deficits are so enormous and why there's such a wealth gap. That's why there's a wealth gap. I'm glad you brought up Richard Nixon, who, just to be clear, was exactly the kind of president who I was supposed to and did hate at the time. But but, you know, honestly, I remember wage and price controls, my mother was making

[45:42] $8,500 a year as a school teacher and and you know, the price of sugar was five was $5 for 5 lb, which was a lot at the time. >> I remember the sugar crisis. And when wage and price controls kicked in, thanks to Richard Nixon, uh my mom said, "I hate that man. I hate the Vietnam War. I hate him. Uh but, you know, he saved my life. I don't know how we would survive if not for these price controls." There's a conspiracy theory, I'm sure you've heard it. It's actually, you know, kind of

[46:13] percolates pretty high into among historians that um Watergate was really kind of orchestrated by the, you know, corporate powers that be as a sort of coup d'état to get rid of Richard Nixon cuz they were so pissed about wage and price controls. >> price controls. You know, one of my earliest memories, my dad came home one day, I think I was four. My dad came home one day and he said to my to my mom, "Honey, I got a raise." And she said, "You did?" And he shows her this letter.

[46:43] And he was making $6,800 a year. And then I remember my mom saying, "Just imagine, honey, if you could make 7,000, we'd be on easy street." You know, John, I I was in a similar situation. I made $10,000 a year working at Bear Stearns in 1984-85 as a trader trainee. And I calculated that if my boss cut my pay by $12 a month uh $12 a

[47:13] Yeah, $12 a pay period, that I could get food stamps. I called the food stamp office. So, I went to my boss and I asked him to cut my pay. He was like, "Get the [ __ ] out of my office." That's fantastic. And then and then that but we were all so snotty about it. He would come come around with the paychecks, the paper paychecks, and it's like, you know, you know, here you go, blah blah blah. And I There were guys who'd be like, "Drop it in the trash." Like,

[47:46] it's not worth it. It's not worth waiting in line at the bank. You know, I remember that, too, that they used to even at the CIA, they would just come with our our paychecks and flip them upside down and leave them on our chairs. Yeah. I I I remember a couple things about the CIA. Not to get too far off the subject, but I was talking to a former CIA colleague of mine and I said, "You know, when I started at the CIA, you could smoke at your desk." And then like after a a year, they made designated smoking areas. So, all of all

[48:17] the managers made their offices designated smoking areas. Wow, so the smoking was that big then? Oh, it was that big, yeah. And then there's a there's a barber in the basement of the CIA. And when I first when I first joined, I was like, oh, I might as well just go get a haircut at the CIA barber instead of going halfway across town. And and I went down there and they had Playboys and Penthouses all over the uh the barber shop. Inside the CIA. That's that's

[48:48] Yeah, it's like a whole city in there, right? Yeah, yeah, it is. And do Do people avail themselves of like the dry cleaner or whatever? Oh, yeah, yeah, everybody does. There's even a little post office substation in there so you don't have to go into town to mail stuff. Oh, I would love that. Yeah, it's great. I used to use it all the time. God, the post office, don't even [ __ ] get me started there. It's like, what a [ __ ] disaster. And I'm a huge I'm I'm really on team post office, too. And like, yeah.

[49:18] Anyway. >> my sister's husband is a is a mailman and he finally retired in March. He said the place is just in chaos. He just can't do it anymore. He did 30 years, that's the end of it. Yeah, I do not blame. Um I forget Pras Michel says, I forgot which president, but Nixon called it closing the gold standard gold window or whatever it was a consequence of a 1960s president doing some other econ policy change. Can't remember what it specifically. I thought it was this it was 1973,

[49:51] right? When Nixon >> it was Nixon. Yeah, I remember gold was like $35 an ounce or $38. >> Yeah, it was set at $35 an ounce. >> Yeah. Yep. I wish I bought like I had I wish I had just Well, I mean I was 10 years old. I had a I had a paper route. I could have I could have bought gold. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Man. All right. >> are you talking about? Yeah, oh for as Matassa says I also don't I also I don't even blame him for Watergate. DNC

[50:23] deserve DNC deserved it and Bob Woodward is a Navy Intel non-journalist. But spying on Pentagon Papers guy Ellsberg true American patriot I think is what he was trying to say. Yeah. Autocorrect. I hate autocorrect. I have a colleague who is a very famous lesbian cartoonist. If you know anything about cartooning, you know who I'm talking about. And well, I'll just tell you it's Alison Bechdel. She of the Bechdel test. She did Fun Home. And anyway, she So I was texting her about something and it

[50:55] I literally used the word pencil. You know, as a cartoonist, you use the word pencil. And it autocorrected thank God before I hit send I hit I hit I caught it before I hit send to penis. And I'm like I do not want to be the guy who emails who texts the word penis. Like, "Hey, did you check out my penis?" Oh my god. Why is like does autocorrect think that penis is a more often used word than pencil? >> I know, right? I don't think so.

[51:28] Anyway. >> Oh my god. So yeah, so what So what's Yeah, I mean obviously we're heading into this Well, let's talk about this Let's talk about the the nuclear option. So what would be How would that look? How How could the filibuster be eliminated? Ironically, couldn't the Democrats filibuster that or could it be Is there another parliamentary maneuver? No, yeah, it's a decision made solely by the majority leader. There doesn't have to be a vote on it

[51:59] because it's not a law. It's an internal rule. You know, and this was also dangerous when Harry Reid lifted the filibuster used the nuclear option on um on judges. He said, "Well, it's going to be fine." And but he wouldn't listen to to reason when people said, "Wait a minute, the Republicans are going to be able to force through their judges if you use the nuclear option now." No, no, it's going to be fine. They're never going to be in the majority ever again because you know, we're so great. And then of

[52:30] course, the Republicans took the Senate. If Donald Trump demands that John Thune use the nuclear option and he does it, Donald Trump is going to get his budget for a year or two or even three maybe, but when the Democrats control the White House and the Senate and you know it's going to happen because it always does the Democrats are going to be able to do anything they want. So this is an extraordinarily short-sighted pronouncement from Donald

[53:02] Trump that Thune has to use the the nuclear option. Will he do it? I doubt it. Thune is not a big Trump fan. He he'll say the right things to keep the MAGA people off his back, but he's not a big fan of Trump and Thune has a better historical understanding of why the Senate needs to keep the filibuster. It's to preserve the rights of the minority and he knows that they're going to be in the minority again. Obviously, yeah, no question. I mean,

[53:33] you know, could happen relatively soon, not next year, but it definitely, you know, I think could happen in three years for sure. No question. >> Yeah, not not next year, but it could happen in three years, absolutely. That's how I mean, that's the thing is like right the Senate's all about the long game, right? I mean, these are people with six-year terms. It's it's a institution with long historical memory. People who serve it's not at all weird or unusual to serve for decades. So they know that like you

[54:05] know, Donald Trump's there now, but Donald Trump won't be there for for forever. Um yeah, I mean just I mean, obviously they I mean, yeah. I if I were the Republican Republican senators, I'd be very very nervous about this. But I guess the thing is John, is isn't it a little unusual in parliamentary systems even in bicameral ones to have an equivalent of the filibuster where >> Yeah. I mean, obviously we don't have the Mr. Smith Goes to Washington thing anymore where you stay you know, even

[54:35] when Corey Booker did it it was kind of fake and he was doing it to but you know, you know, having to wear the astronaut diaper and piss in your pants or whatever you do. Right. But like still it's an unusual situation, right? To not have a simple majority prevail. It is. You know, and and it evolved. It's not in our constitution. It evolved over time. Um you know, I mean, what are the pros and cons of having obviously minority rights you know, you can't run roughshod over the minority and you want to have

[55:06] policies not just squeak through. You want them to have a be based on broader consensus than 50%. Yes. Right now you can really see it the the importance of that. And on the downside it uh it Well, in in my mind to tell you the honest to God's truth, I I don't see a downside. It protects the rights of the minority. On the downside it it also leads to gridlock. And yeah, and obstructionism. There's that. Obstructionism, sure. Like for example,

[55:38] yeah, I mean it it's true that what the Republicans were doing to Obama's judges was really wrong. Yeah, it was. And and what that evil [ __ ] Mitch McConnell did by denying Obama his his final Supreme Court nomination. The Democrats it may take years, but the Democrats are going to get revenge for that. Although you know, and I agree with you for 100% but I know I also don't forgive Obama for kick for kicking off to uh for kicking

[56:08] off to Martha's Vineyard while that was all happening and just like, "I'm good. See you later. See you in 6 weeks. It's all fine. Whatever. Hillary will win." Remember? He said that. "Hillary will win." So it'll all be taken care of. That was the other thing, right? That's right. I'm not worried about the election results. Easy peasy. We all woke up on election morning and Nate Silver had a had a we had a had had her chances of winning at 90%. You could like watch that.

[56:38] >> I remember that 90%. I remember Nate Silver having to eat crow afterwards. >> I can't believe that guy even still has a job after that. I mean, think about the [ __ ] Think about the [ __ ] we you know, you got like you're getting death threats over that thing with the Pakistanis. I mean, Nate Silver he really [ __ ] up and nothing happened. He really did. I mean, probably Let's talk about this judge. I mean, so today I don't know if this may have even be happening while we're on the air right now. But this judge yesterday

[57:10] signal signaled that Indira Talwani is not does not believe the Trump administration's um basically argument. They don't want to release the emergency funds. There's 5.3 billion that Congress set aside in case there was a problem paying out SNAP. Now to be clear, that will not cover the month of November. It would So the government was arguing that it would be a logistical nightmare. I'm like really you guys have trouble

[57:41] with pro rata? You guys can't say you guys don't know the arithmetic of 5.3 billion divided by whatever the normal November is thing equal such percent and that's how much you get? I don't know if I trust this government to send people out to outer space. But okay. That said, they you know, the they the government was saying, "Well, it's only meant to be released if as a supplement." But it's like an emergency

[58:12] fund isn't a supplement. It makes So the judge is is going to overrule. Will the administration ignore her or appeal to SCOTUS or Oh yeah, they'll they'll appeal they'll appeal quickly. Which is funny because they make no singular of the fact that they're that they're trying to create a cutout to pay servicemen and women. Their their salaries. Forget the poor people. They want the military people to get their pay. But yeah, I

[58:43] I I I think it's going to be I think it's going to be going to be an issue and that the administration's going to challenge it. They'll appeal either to the the circuit court or they'll go straight to uh to the Supreme Court. And what will the So I guess the question is is it will the Supreme Court say, "This is an administration prerogative and they can do what they want" or will they you know, it's just so hard to say. I yeah, I mean, you know my my position on

[59:13] feeding poor people. But I I'm not sure that she has the authority to do this. Okay, so I guess the next question is I mean, of course there's the broader question if if Congress allocate you know, allocates funds, do they have to spend it? We're out of time unfortunately, but we will have we'll know by Monday what's happening what the the and what the results look for look like. For those of you who are facing this cut this this cut off, I'm very sorry and and and ashamed of our country. I

[59:46] just want to say that. Anyway, thanks everyone for liking, following, sharing the show. We're Deprogrammed with Ted Rall and John Kiriakou. We're here Monday through Friday 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time. Stay tuned. We will be I'll be I'll be staying on the air with Manila Chan with the TMI show. We'll be having a special Halloween thing talking about America's love affair with horror movies. Thanks everyone. Bye John. See you later. >> Bye Ted.

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